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1400 beats 2400 IM Ling Fong with KIA.

Original post by Standard member plopzilla, 04 Sep '11 22:55
  1. under your bed
    Joined : 10 Nov '10
    Moves : 14045
    Sorry had to post this as GP is always slagging off the KIA!

    Also, as computer use is the main topic at moment my point is that for me a patzer to beat this program there must be something wrong? (and before trolltastic comes along this is in no way a showboat) I just thought an interesting example of how bad computer program is?

  2. e4
    Joined : 06 May '08
    Moves : 9303
    Hi Plopzilla

    That was not a KIA.


    That is the Pirc set-up v the London System. The delayed e2-e4 makes
    it a much more flexible set up.

    The KIA (a genuine chess oxymoron) starts with 1.e4 allowing the f1 Bishop to develop.


    if White sees 1...c5 or 1...e6 then a tempo is wasted by g3,
    f3 and h3 is weakened and the Bishop ends up being blocked by the very
    pawn that freed him in the first place. It's illogical and it's rubbish.
    A waste of the White pieces.


    It is played by selfish theory dodgers who do not care about the poor
    IM's and GM's who write opening books on the Lopez, Scotch, Winawer,
    Dragons and Nafdorf.

    Somebody has to buy them, if we all stopped then they would stop churning
    them out by the bucket load every month.
    Imagine a world without chess opening books?

    The KIA crowd are tight fisted, cowardly, lazy and ruining the economy.
  3. Joined : 27 Sep '06
    Moves : 3441
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Plopzilla

    That was not a KIA.

    [fen]rn1qkb1r/ppp2ppp/4pn2/3p1b2/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 5[/fen]
    That is the Pirc set-up v the London System. The delayed e2-e4 makes
    it a much more flexible set up.

    The KIA (a genuine chess oxymoron) starts with 1.e4 allowing the f1 Bishop to develop.
    No it absolutely is a KIA. In order for it to be a Pirc/London the colors would have to be reversed. I even ran it through several databases to double-check that there wasn't a transposition that I didn't know about. They all said it was A07 which is a KIA.

    And traditionally, the KIA starts with 1. Nf3. 1. e4 is a move order finesse. You would never say the KIA starts with 1.e4... well, if you wanted to be correct you wouldn't.

    I don't know if you're trying to be funny or what. As usual, your posts make no sense whatsoever. I just thought I would clear up some confusion in your post in case some less experienced players were reading it. They might actually believe what you said.
  4. Pities the fool
    Joined : 09 Jul '11
    Moves : 934
    Cool story Bro!

    http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/000/346/969638-cool_story__bro_super.jpg?1244744838
  5. Up a
    gumtree
    Joined : 13 Jan '10
    Moves : 5151
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Plopzilla

    That was not a KIA.

    [fen]rn1qkb1r/ppp2ppp/4pn2/3p1b2/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 5[/fen]
    That is the Pirc set-up v the London System. The delayed e2-e4 makes
    it a much more flexible set up.

    The KIA (a genuine chess oxymoron) starts with 1.e4 allowing the f1 Bishop to develop.

    [fen]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/ ss opening books?

    The KIA crowd are tight fisted, cowardly, lazy and ruining the economy.
    If the KIA starts with 1. e4 (it doesn't, the "real" KIA starts 1. Nf3) then why doesn't the limp wristed black version, the KID, start 1. d4 e5?

    The 1. e4 "KIA" is played by white when black doesn't let him play his favourite Boring Game and he doesn't have the balls to play 2. d4. This should really be called the "Hiding Behind the Sofa Attack". 1. Nf3 leaves white with the flexibility to take the opening into a KIA, a Reti (fun if black is daft enough to play dxc4, not fun if he plays d4), an English or even a queen's pawn opening. 1. e4 just forces white to play some theory laden variation of something with a silly name (Ruy Lopez? Never heard of him.)
  6. under your bed
    Joined : 10 Nov '10
    Moves : 14045
    come on GP... that is a KIA all day long!

    - we need to get Paul L in here to confirm.. )
  7. Joined : 18 Feb '10
    Moves : 0
    I think a KIA has to start with 1.e4. 1.Nf3 is a Reti, though of course all manner of transpositions are possible. The KIA is basically a system for White to open with 1.e4 and then avoid most mainline Black defences as it can be played against the French, Caro-Kann and Sicilian.

    I don't think this game transposed to a KIA because White didn't play e4 until move 8.

    I was confused by the weak play of the "IM" until I Googled and found that "IM Ling Fong" is actually a computer program whose playing strength has clearly been overestimated. White played pretty well, but a real IM would have torn him limb from limb.
  8. Up a
    gumtree
    Joined : 13 Jan '10
    Moves : 5151
    Originally posted by Data Fly
    I think a KIA has to start with 1.e4. 1.Nf3 is a Reti, though of course all manner of transpositions are possible. The KIA is basically a system for White to open with 1.e4 and then avoid most mainline Black defences as it can be played against the French, Caro-Kann and Sicilian.

    I don't think this game transposed to a KIA because White didn't play e4 un overestimated. White played pretty well, but a real IM would have torn him limb from limb.
    Reti and KIA can both start with 1. Nf3. The Reti "happens" if white plays c4 at some point, whereas it is a KIA if white plays e4 at some point. Of course, the Reti c4 may also result in transposition to an English, in which case c4 and e4 might be played, and there could be a further transposition to a queen's pawn opening at some point. Kramnik plays 1. Nf3. intending a Catalan for example.

    The KIA can be used after 1. e4 to avoid Black's favourite setup in a non-e5 defence but it only really works if black plays e6, that's why Fischer used it against e6 Sicilians.
  9. e4
    Joined : 06 May '08
    Moves : 9303
    Hi Savage.

    Sorry if I failed to add the words 'reversed' making it clear enough for you
    to understand.

    1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bf4 Bg7 4. e3 O-O 5. Bd3 d6


    That is a Pirc set up v the London System and that is the exact reverse
    of the position Plopzila posted.

    Now run that through several databses and see what it says.
    (it's all done with mirrors.)

    A genuine KIA is 1.e4 followed by 2.d3 3.Nd2 etc....
    v Sicilains, French and Kann's. It's the great attraction of this opening.
    Of course you have to be ready for 1...d5 but you cannot get everything
    you want in Chess.

    Playing 1.Nf3 can transpose into almost anything except a Birds (1.f4).
    If you want a KIA then the 1.e4 method cuts out a lot of the so called
    Anti-KIA systems. (see below for just one of them.)

    After 1.e4 v c5, c6 or e6. Black has a set pawn structure, especially after 1.c5.
    You can go for a clean KIA. You will not always get a pure KIA with 1.Nf3 or 1.g3.

    Players often mix up the KIA and the KId.

    The KID differs from the KIA in as much as Black delays/never plays. ...e5.
    It often depends on where White places his c1 Bishop. Also White has a pawn
    centre for Black to plot against. Not always the reversed case with the KIA.

    I often think they have the names mixed up.
    In the KID Black is on the attack v White's pawn structure.
    In the KIA White is defending against Black's opening knowledge.

    A basic anti - KIA system v 1.Nf3

  10. In attack
    Joined : 02 Mar '06
    Moves : 28707
    KIA or not, openings like this bore my socks off. Where's the gambiteering or kamikaze saccing?
  11. Chess Librarian
    The Stacks
    Joined : 21 Aug '09
    Moves : 79756
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    If the KIA starts with 1. e4 (it doesn't, the "real" KIA starts 1. Nf3) then why doesn't the limp wristed black version, the KID, start 1. d4 e5?

    The 1. e4 "KIA" is played by white when black doesn't let him play his favourite Boring Game and he doesn't have the balls to play 2. d4. This should really be called the "Hiding Behind the Sofa Attack". 1. N ...[text shortened]... heory laden variation of something with a silly name (Ruy Lopez? Never heard of him.)
    Diophantus says it all. The KIA began with 1. Nf3, but in the 1960's players learned they could transpose into a KIA after 1. e4.

    When you see games starting 1. e4 and turn into KIA's, it is usually referred to as KIA by transposition.

    I think the confusion comes from the fact that the KIA has been very effective against the French, and the positions usually come from the 1. e4 e6 move order, so people naturally assume that's how it starts, even when the game actually started 1. Nf3 d5 and transposes to a French.

    As a side note, Fischer played the KIA from the 1. Nf3 move order from 1957 to 1963, and then moved to the 1. e4 move order from 1963 on, when he played it against the French or against the Sicilian when black played an early ...e6.

    I often play what is effectively a Pirc or Modern Reversed, but I would never use that description for a game where black never played an early ...e5.

    In any event, this is nomeclature, not chess theory, so anyone can call it anything. It seems that reinventing names for old openings and writing a book about it is all the rage these days, and it's only a matter of time before I pick up a copy of Starting Out: The Pirc Attack secondhand somewhere!
  12. Chess Librarian
    The Stacks
    Joined : 21 Aug '09
    Moves : 79756
    Originally posted by morgski
    KIA or not, openings like this bore my socks off. Where's the gambiteering or kamikaze saccing?
    As requested, with the 1. e4 move order, against one of the greatest French Defense players of all time. GM Evgeni Vasiukov is white, and he deserves to be better known. He is an artist.


  13. e4
    Joined : 06 May '08
    Moves : 9303
    Hi Paul.

    A perfect example of it working. That Nxd5 shot with a Bishop on f4
    and the Queen on c7 shot was a trick I often tried to pull when I played it.
    Never got to pull it off it in a serious game.
    I gave it up after six months or so, it was just not me.

    1.e4 v 1.Nf3
    If you know the lad is a Sicilian or French player then 1.e4 is best way to get a KIA.
    Playing 1.Nf3 and there is no guarentee.
    If you meet 1...e5 you can play a Vienna (2.Nc3) and still fianchetto your KB
    if that is your baby.
    i
  14. Chess Librarian
    The Stacks
    Joined : 21 Aug '09
    Moves : 79756
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Paul.

    A perfect example of it working. That Nxd5 shot with a Bishop on f4
    and the Queen on c7 shot was a trick I often tried to pull when I played it.
    Never got to pull it off it in a serious game.
    I gave it up after six months or so, it was just not me.

    1.e4 v 1.Nf3
    If you know the lad is a Sicilian or French player then 1.e4 is best way t ...[text shortened]... meet 1...e5 you can play a Vienna (2.Nc3) and still fianchetto your KB
    if that is your baby.
    i
    Well said- that's why the KIA is not really a cure-all for someone looking for the answer to everything.

    Typically, 1. e4 KIA players will play the King's Gambit or Vienna, and the 1. Nf3 KIA players will also have Reti, English, and/or Catalan arrows in their quivers.

    If I use the 1. g3 move order, I sometimes will play a true Closed Sicilian (queen's knight to c3, king's knight to e2 or f3 only after the f-pawn goes to f4) if black plays a Sicilian structure with ...d6 instead of ...e6 and ...d5, or more recently I have tried the Leningrad Bird.

    If black plays ...c5 without ...d5, the Leningrad Bird and the Closed Sicilian mostly transpose because white gets the e4/f4 pawn duo anyway, but with the Leningrad Bird move order, the other guy burns an extra 20-40 minutes on his clock before we get there!

    As a side note, in the French the ...Qc7 move was practically refuted in the 1960's, but I see it relatively regularly because it seems logical to those who have never studied the position in detail. I once drew US Life Master Larry Storch when he played ...Qc7 against me- I was a piece up with all my kingside pawns up around his king, and he slapped a perpetual on my exposed king. I missed the full point, but it helped me place in a tournament from the middle of the rating pack.
  15. Joined : 27 Sep '06
    Moves : 3441
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Savage.

    Sorry if I failed to add the words 'reversed' making it clear enough for you
    to understand.

    1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bf4 Bg7 4. e3 O-O 5. Bd3 d6

    [fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/3P1B2/3BPN2/PPP2PPP/RN1QK2R w KQ - 0 6[/fen]
    That is a Pirc set up v the London System and that is the exact reverse
    of the position Plopzila posted.

    Now - he is going for a reverse 150 attack v The Pirc. Last one to blunder losses.}[/pgn]
    "Sorry if I failed to add the words 'reversed'... "
    Without saying its reversed you would be entirely incorrect. Its not the same position. In the position you give its white to move whereas in the reverse it would be the other side. That one move can make a big difference. That's like calling (1.c4, e5) a sicilian. Its not and usually that extra move will cause the opening to go into different lines than would arise the other way. You would never see a chess writer or strong player refer to a position the way you did.

    "A genuine KIA is 1.e4 ..."
    Again, you're wrong, it doesn't. We seem to all be in agreement in this thread except for you. Paul, Diophantus and Plopzilla have all said pretty much the exact same thing I've said. The KIA is classified under 1. Nf3.
    http://www.chessgames.com/chessecohelp.html

    I could give you plenty more links if that's not enough.

    "The KID differs from the KIA in as much as Black delays/never plays. ...e5. "
    I'm far from an expert in either opening. I've toyed with the idea of playing them but have never actually tried to start learning them much beyond the basics. So, I'll defer to MCO. MCO has black playing e5 by move 6 in every single line in the first 41 columns. Those are the main lines. It also appears black plays e5 in most of the rest. I really have no idea where you're going with that. The difference in the two openigs is that white has an extra move in the KIA which is both good and bad and often leads to different types of positions.
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